BUCHANAN & PRESS for July 29, 2003, MSNBC Pat Buchanan, Ron Reagan, Tom Aspell, Andrea Mitchell 29 July 2003 MSNBC: Press vs Buchanan ANNOUNCER: The smartest hour on television, BUCHANAN & PRESS. ... PAT BUCHANAN, CO-HOST: OK. Thank you very much Congressman Kucinich. Upcoming, folks, the Pentagon cancels a controversial plan for a bettor`s market on when terrorists will strike again. Our next guest, Senator Byron Dorgan, led the fight to kill the idea. You`re watching BUCHANAN & PRESS. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) REAGAN: Ahead on BUCHANAN & PRESS -- the Saudis reach out to the White House after renewed questions about their possible terror links. Should they be trusted? You`re watching MSNBC. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) REAGAN: The Pentagon has abruptly canceled a controversial plan to place bets on future terror attacks. Senator Byron Dorgan was an outspoken critic from the start. Senator, good evening. SEN. BYRON DORGAN (D), NORTH DAKOTA: Thank you. REAGAN: I assume you`re pleased with the Pentagon`s announcement today. But what I want to know is who comes up with these sterling ideas anyway? DORGAN: Well I`d like to find that out as well. I`d like to make sure they`re not on the public payroll much longer. You know I come from a really small town, 350 people, but when they think something is dumb, they don`t use elegant language. They just call it dumb, and I`ve not seen a public policy quite this goofy in my life. I mean here`s the Web site -- they actually pulled this down yesterday, but the Web site talks about the ability to buy future contracts on how many U.S. military soldiers would be killed in a certain timeframe, whether Arafat would be assassinated, whether the king of Jordan would be overthrown. I mean it`s incredible. Most people think it`s a hoax, but in fact, it was the Pentagon with a program to try to create a betting casino on these future events, with which to predict apparently what`s going to happen in the future. But I think it`s bizarre. REAGAN: Pat, I think... BUCHANAN: Well Senator... REAGAN: ... you had some money on the Chrysler... BUCHANAN: Senator, let me see if I can make the case. John Poindexter over there at DARPA is a good friend of mine from... DORGAN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) BUCHANAN: ... Reagan days, as we say. Here is the idea as I understand it. You would create a futures market and people would project or predict with small bets on where they think the next major strike is going to come. You would get people participating former and present members of the CIA, FBI, KGB, Mossad, MI5, MI6... DORGAN: Terrorists... BUCHANAN: ... diplomats and others (UNINTELLIGIBLE) terrorists. DORGAN: Maybe terrorists would participate in the... BUCHANAN: All right, if a terrorist bought a future contract on a strike on the World Trade Center, suddenly the odds on that would drop dramatically and that would be the signal in the futures market... DORGAN: Yes. BUCHANAN: ... that something is going on out there. In other words, Senator, what I`m saying is this seems to me to be a project to get the benefit of all the best thinking of the smartest people in the world on where terror is going to happen and have it all of a sudden in one place. I know... (CROSSTALK) BUCHANAN: ... it sounds stupid, but Senator, I see the idea. DORGAN: Pat, did you listen to yourself? I mean, don`t be the last defender of a bad idea. (CROSSTALK) BUCHANAN: OK. DORGAN: The fact is they say this is the market system. Let`s have the market system try to evaluate what might or might not happen, and so we`re going to let people bet on how many U.S. soldiers are killed in combat. We`re going to let people bet on whether a foreign leader is assassinated. I`m just telling you it`s dumb. It`s unforgivable dumb. (CROSSTALK) BUCHANAN: All right, but let me just say this. But look -- all right, let me give you an example. If someone -- for example, if somebody bet that the next thing that`s going to happen is massive firing of Katyusha rockets out of southern Lebanon into Israel, and these bets were coming from inside intelligence agencies by second, third-level people, they might have knowledge something is coming up, and the people at the Pentagon would sit there and look at it and say, are the Israelis realizing that a lot of people -- can we check this out? It`s like getting the best political reporters... (CROSSTALK) BUCHANAN: ... Senator Dorgan, and doing a futures market on who`s going to win the New Hampshire primary. They would come in with a fairly good bet. DORGAN: So you`re saying second and third-level people in the CIA will be able to, through futures contractors -- futures contracts, predict future events. Because we`re paying them on the public payroll, how about just having them provide us with their best intelligence, rather than set up a futures market that they`ll have 10,000 traders in from all over the world, and they guarantee in the Defense Department they won`t know who they are. Isn`t that interesting? (CROSSTALK) DORGAN: But my point, Pat... (CROSSTALK) DORGAN: ... you know, the market system, and that`s what they put out at Dartmouth (ph), the market system. Look, I used to teach economics. I love the market system. But you know the market system provided -- oh, it provided that Judge Judy on TV gets $25 million. A shortstop for the Texas Rangers gets paid the same as 1,000 elementary school teachers. And Johnny Unitas, by the way, was drafted I think in the sixth or eighth round. (CROSSTALK) DORGAN: So the market system isn`t always perfect. And what I would like to see is this country decide it should have good, top-flight intelligence and that`s... (CROSSTALK) DORGAN: ... the way we protect our country, not setting up these cockamamie schemes. BUCHANAN: All right. Well, Senator, I agree with you 100 percent, but we all know that the good intelligence in the fifth level of the FBI did not get to the top, it did not get over to the White House. But if people were out there and all of a sudden the odds on a airline driving into the World Trade Center went from 10,000 to one suddenly to 100 to one because people were ticked off, they say that`s the next thing that`s going to happen, all of a sudden people might wake up to what`s coming. This is a way to pull all this intelligence.... REAGAN: But Pat... DORGAN: I`m sorry, I`m sorry... BUCHANAN: OK, I didn`t convince you. DORGAN: Go ahead, Ron. REAGAN: But Pat... (CROSSTALK) REAGAN: ... and Senator, if you want to get these... BUCHANAN: Yes. REAGAN: ... people`s opinion, why not just call them on the phone and ask them? Why does it... DORGAN: Well... REAGAN: ... have to be a betting pool? DORGAN: ... it`s plus the people that Pat is saying that are going to be involved in this are people we already have on our payroll, second and third-level folks of the CIA and the FBI, and let me just say this. You`re right, Pat, the information didn`t get up from the third... (CROSSTALK) DORGAN: ... and the fifth level of the FBI. Let`s find out why it didn`t and fire those folks, and let`s have an FBI and a CIA and an intelligence community that works to protect this country. We don`t have to put together hair-brained schemes that say, let`s have people betting on assassinations and somehow believe that`s going to give us... BUCHANAN: OK. DORGAN: ... insight into terrorism. It`s nonsense. BUCHANAN: OK, Senator -- OK, you won -- all right, you win the argument Senator. You`ve won the battle. Let me ask you about this breaking news here. The White House has asked the Saudi foreign minister to permit the interrogation of Saudis linked to the 9-11 conspirators. Now, this is breaking news, Senator, and I realize you haven`t seen it. DORGAN: I have not. BUCHANAN: But does it sound like this is coming awfully late? (CROSSTALK) ...